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wormhole surfer
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Joined: 06 Oct 2006
Posts: 145
Location: france
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 Posted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 8:41 pm Post subject: how does exactly work the old elo ranking ? |
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Hi everyone !!
i just wanted to know how does exactly work the elo system...
Was it this system used by the DCI 10 years ago for netrunner, i think so ...
is there any other system easier or better for netrunner ?
Does it interests anyone i take care a new such ranking system ?
Bye bye |
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Malhavoc
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Joined: 01 Jan 1970
Posts: 523
Location: Italy
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| Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 12:02 am Post subject: |
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It is currently used for Magic as well, and even for Draughts and I think Chess too.
The idea is this:
- you start at a certain amount of points (ranking)
- every time you play against someone, you may lose/gain an amount of points. An identical amount of points will be lost/gained by your opponent (of course opposite sign)
- generally, more you are below your opponent's rating, more points you will gain if you win, and still you will gain them if you draw. Loss is always a loss of points, but will be few if you are a lot below in ranking. On the other hand, if you win against someone below you, you will gain little, you will lose a bit if you draw, and lose a lot if you lose
During big tournaments, certain coefficient may be used to increment the amount of points gained/lost.
This is the general idea. You can find the strict maths on wikipedia of course.
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Photon
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Joined: 05 Aug 2006
Posts: 139
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| Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 12:26 pm Post subject: |
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Do you intend to include online matches under certain criteria?
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Frizzler
Top Runner
Joined: 10 Aug 2006
Posts: 287
Location: Koblenz, Germany
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| Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 12:42 pm Post subject: |
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Hi,
reviving the old world ranking list would be cool.
See
http://www.darkpact.de/netrunner/netrunner.html
and especially for the calculation:
http://www.darkpact.de/netrunner/tournaments/toKnow.html
It might help reactivating the game (both online and offline).
Quoting from second URL:
| Quote: |
What does a Rated Player have to know
All players start with a rating of exactly 1600 points. When a player wins a game his new rating is calculated using a formula developed by the World Chess Federation, called ELO. This system is also used by the DCI for the World Ranking list in TOG.
newValue = oldValue + k*( (GMP/3) - (1/ (10^(diff/400) +1) ) )
GMP are the number of GMP points scored in that round.
diff the the difference in points to the opponent, before the match.
k is 32 if you are under 2100 points, 24 if you are between 2100 and 2400 points and 16 if you have more than 2400 points.
When a players plays a match he gets points calculated by the difference in ratingpoints to his opponent. If a higher rated player wins he'll get less points and the loser will lose less points, and vice versa. Though if you play a draw, the higher ranked player will lose points, and the lower ranked will win points.
The maximum points a player can win or lose is the k-Value. I'm thinking about changing this value as they did with m:tog, but not so complicated, to reflect the size of a tournament. But I didn't come up with something that suited me for now.
Any time a player reaches 2100 points, he will get a new factor by which the point diffrence is multiplicated. Actually he may get so well, that he will have a harder time to get more points. Any time a player reaches this point, he can be truely called an expert.
The points in the Ranking List are all rounded, so ratings like 1629.83953298034521239353 are avoided. Don't worry, the database keeps the unrounded rating for the next match.
The difference between the ranked list and the other list is that you will be included in the unranked list after your first match, so that every player can see his point numbers. But as soon as you hit the 16 matches to reflect that you played enough games to take it as useful start ranking, you are included in the ranked list.
If you realise that there are any spelling errors in your name or the name of a friend of yours, let me know and it will be corrected.
The Ranking Lists were started in January 1997. They include allmost every tournaments I know about from January the 1st till now, except for a few ones were I couldn't find anyone to send me the information after the tournament.
If you want to get sure that they tournament your playing in will find its way to me. Speak with the Tournament coordinator and give him my email address: ..., or convince him to give the results to you so you could send them to me. |
(I don't think Matthis Nagy still updates the list, so I didn't quote his email address here) |
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wormhole surfer
Runner
Joined: 06 Oct 2006
Posts: 145
Location: france
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| Posted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 8:51 pm Post subject: |
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hi everyone, i'll think about it thx for reply !!
I think the main problem is the difficulty to handle it ...and time !
is there here any programers able to create an online service able to manage Netrunner elo ranking ? |
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Malhavoc
Site Admin
Joined: 01 Jan 1970
Posts: 523
Location: Italy
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| Posted: Wed Mar 17, 2010 12:38 am Post subject: |
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Take a look at programs to manage Chess tournaments, I'm sure there are a lot of free ones, and they do what you need in the end.
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wormhole surfer
Runner
Joined: 06 Oct 2006
Posts: 145
Location: france
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| Posted: Wed Mar 17, 2010 5:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Photon wrote: |
| Do you intend to include online matches under certain criteria? |
Hi sorry for the long delay time to respond ...
originally i didn't want to include online matches because i just don't like online gaming ...this game is so great and have to be promoted physically ...even by proxys for new players !!
The real main problem is to find opponent ... so online matches and all the work made here is so great so i think i'll include online matches...
What do you all think of that ?
Do we include online matches mixed with offline matches or do i have to create 2 separated rankings ?
after that do i have to create only one rankings ( with sealed, constructed 1/15, constructed no limit, ...)
or do i have to creat one rank for each game formats ?
this is an open question to all players the majority will have rights lol |
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wormhole surfer
Runner
Joined: 06 Oct 2006
Posts: 145
Location: france
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| Posted: Wed Mar 17, 2010 5:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Malhavoc wrote: |
| Take a look at programs to manage Chess tournaments, I'm sure there are a lot of free ones, and they do what you need in the end. |
hi !
i've found a shareware limited to 100 use ...
it is pretty simple to use i'll check how cost the licence...
one thing that bother me with elo system is that it doesnt care if players wins 6-0 or 4-2 ...
Don't we have so to create a new ranking handling with that ? |
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wormhole surfer
Runner
Joined: 06 Oct 2006
Posts: 145
Location: france
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| Posted: Wed Mar 17, 2010 6:01 pm Post subject: |
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Hi fabian hos are U ?
did you see the photos of my tournaments on our yahoo groop ?
so sad you couldn't come ...
i 've just see that GMP a count in elo system so cool
Is it important to handle a victory 6-0 or 4-2 in addition of GMP ?
thx have a nice evening
| Frizzler wrote: |
Hi,
reviving the old world ranking list would be cool.
See
http://www.darkpact.de/netrunner/netrunner.html
and especially for the calculation:
http://www.darkpact.de/netrunner/tournaments/toKnow.html
It might help reactivating the game (both online and offline).
Quoting from second URL:
| Quote: |
What does a Rated Player have to know
All players start with a rating of exactly 1600 points. When a player wins a game his new rating is calculated using a formula developed by the World Chess Federation, called ELO. This system is also used by the DCI for the World Ranking list in TOG.
newValue = oldValue + k*( (GMP/3) - (1/ (10^(diff/400) +1) ) )
GMP are the number of GMP points scored in that round.
diff the the difference in points to the opponent, before the match.
k is 32 if you are under 2100 points, 24 if you are between 2100 and 2400 points and 16 if you have more than 2400 points.
When a players plays a match he gets points calculated by the difference in ratingpoints to his opponent. If a higher rated player wins he'll get less points and the loser will lose less points, and vice versa. Though if you play a draw, the higher ranked player will lose points, and the lower ranked will win points.
The maximum points a player can win or lose is the k-Value. I'm thinking about changing this value as they did with m:tog, but not so complicated, to reflect the size of a tournament. But I didn't come up with something that suited me for now.
Any time a player reaches 2100 points, he will get a new factor by which the point diffrence is multiplicated. Actually he may get so well, that he will have a harder time to get more points. Any time a player reaches this point, he can be truely called an expert.
The points in the Ranking List are all rounded, so ratings like 1629.83953298034521239353 are avoided. Don't worry, the database keeps the unrounded rating for the next match.
The difference between the ranked list and the other list is that you will be included in the unranked list after your first match, so that every player can see his point numbers. But as soon as you hit the 16 matches to reflect that you played enough games to take it as useful start ranking, you are included in the ranked list.
If you realise that there are any spelling errors in your name or the name of a friend of yours, let me know and it will be corrected.
The Ranking Lists were started in January 1997. They include allmost every tournaments I know about from January the 1st till now, except for a few ones were I couldn't find anyone to send me the information after the tournament.
If you want to get sure that they tournament your playing in will find its way to me. Speak with the Tournament coordinator and give him my email address: ..., or convince him to give the results to you so you could send them to me. |
(I don't think Matthis Nagy still updates the list, so I didn't quote his email address here) |
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wormhole surfer
Runner
Joined: 06 Oct 2006
Posts: 145
Location: france
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| Posted: Wed Mar 17, 2010 6:11 pm Post subject: |
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i've just thought about counting GMP in the calcul of elo .
I think it is sad for tag & bag or bad pub players ... no ? |
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Frizzler
Top Runner
Joined: 10 Aug 2006
Posts: 287
Location: Koblenz, Germany
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| Posted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 12:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
What do you all think of that ?
Do we include online matches mixed with offline matches or do i have to create 2 separated rankings ?
after that do i have to create only one rankings ( with sealed, constructed 1/15, constructed no limit, ...)
or do i have to creat one rank for each game formats ? |
Only one Ranking for all, including online matches.
| Quote: |
| Is it important to handle a victory 6-0 or 4-2 in addition of GMP ? |
This is GMP; GMP means game points. For the formula cited above, it is assumed that the winner gains 1 game point per game won and an additional game point is given to the overall winner.
I wouldn't give that additional game point and divide the GMP scored in this round by 2 instead of 3 (or 6 if you give two game points per game won plus the game point for the match), but that is just my opinion.
So if a player wins both games and no game point for the match is given, GMP is 2 in his formula.
If there is a draw in a game, both players get 0.5 points for that game. Reflecting agenda points would be too complicated.
I don't think you need a software for calculating this.
Example: Both players have 1600 Points before the match. Winner wins 2:0.
Points for Winner after the match =
= oldValue + k*( (GMP/2) - (1/ (10^(diff/400) +1) ) )
= 1600 + 32 * ( (2/2) - (1 / (10^(0/400) +1)) )
= 1600 + 32 * ( 1 - (1 / (1+1) )
= 1600 + 32 * 0.5
= 1600 + 16
= 1616
Edit: Added description for "GMP", corrected calculation
Last edited by Frizzler on Thu Mar 18, 2010 2:23 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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wormhole surfer
Runner
Joined: 06 Oct 2006
Posts: 145
Location: france
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| Posted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 2:10 pm Post subject: |
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hi fabian
ah ok i though that GMP was the agenda point scored ...( we do not handle it so ?)
why do not care of extra GMP ?
with ur system if each a player won a half match how care it ?because the GMP will be 2 for each player whereas only one player will win the match ...
i hope u'll understand what i mean, my english isn't perfect sorry ...
Thx for reply
have a nice day
| Frizzler wrote: |
| Quote: |
What do you all think of that ?
Do we include online matches mixed with offline matches or do i have to create 2 separated rankings ?
after that do i have to create only one rankings ( with sealed, constructed 1/15, constructed no limit, ...)
or do i have to creat one rank for each game formats ? |
Only one Ranking for all, including online matches.
| Quote: |
| Is it important to handle a victory 6-0 or 4-2 in addition of GMP ? |
This is GMP; I wouldn't give the extra match points and divide the GMP scored in this round by 2 instead of 3, but that is just my opinion. So if a player wins both games, GMP is 4 in his formula.
I don't think you need a software for calculating this.
Example: Both players have 1600 Points before the match. Winner wins 4:0.
Points for Winner after the match =
= oldValue + k*( (GMP/2) - (1/ (10^(diff/400) +1) ) )
= 1600 + 32 * ( (4/2) - (1 / (10^(0/400) +1)) )
= 1600 + 32 * ( 2 - (1 / (1+1) )
= 1600 + 32 * 1.5
= 1600 + 48
= 1648 |
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Frizzler
Top Runner
Joined: 10 Aug 2006
Posts: 287
Location: Koblenz, Germany
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| Posted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 2:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| with ur system if each a player won a half match how care it ?because the GMP will be 2 for each player whereas only one player will win the match ... |
If a game goes 10:6 5:10 , then it is a draw in my opinion (1:1 in terms of GMP).
But it is OK for me if you give a match point and if you multiply the GMP by 2 (the same example would yield 4:2 in terms of match points).
It is only important that the number that divides the GMP in the formula is always the total of GMP scored (2 with my preferred way to calculate it, 6 with yours; and 3 in the way Matthias Nagy used to do it). |
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wormhole surfer
Runner
Joined: 06 Oct 2006
Posts: 145
Location: france
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| Posted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 10:38 pm Post subject: |
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thx fabian for theses explanations !!
it nows appear quite clear to me
In order to avoid egality or problem of time limit i prefer use The system 6-0 to count point ...
Is everybody is ok for that ?
On www.netrunneronline.com Franck who take care of that site propse to include the global ranking there, is everybody will be ok for that ?
Thx
let the run Begin !! |
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wormhole surfer
Runner
Joined: 06 Oct 2006
Posts: 145
Location: france
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